Ayla Ruby
Forget the final frontier, for Emmy-winning visual effects supervisor Jason Zimmerman, the real mission is surviving 60 years of Star Trek canon. Boasting an impressive franchise pedigree that includes overseeing the vfx world of Star Trek: Starfleet Academy and Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Zimmerman has spent years managing a massive 150-episode footprint across 17 seasons of television. In this interview, the seasoned VFX captain opens up about his newest command, Star Trek: Starfleet Academy, revealing how his team used volume production to create a , 22K-resolution Atrium Window and a 360-degree virtual production volume for a Jonathan Frakes-directed marketplace rescue. Zimmerman chats Star Trek: Strange New Worlds as well, and goes into the process for amping up the Gorn and, if you can believe it, making them scarier. Read on for the full chat.
Ayla Ruby: I‘m going to dive right into Starfleet Academy because it’s new, new and shiny. It’s this new thing. How do you start the visual effects language of the show when you’re … And you’ve done it before with several other shows when you’re just-..
Jason Zimmerman: I’ve done. Yeah, I’ve done every iteration since discovery. So it’s always challenging when you start a new show because you are developing sort of a new look. But with Star Trek at the same time, you’re following canon. In this particular instance, we’re actually following canon that we helped create in the form of the later Discovery seasons. And so we kind of had at least a litle bit of the visual language. We knew certain rules about things like programmable matter or the way that the certain nacelles on ships floated or were not connected. So we had a litle bit of a visual touchpoint, but at the same time, I think working with Alex and Noga, the showrunners early on, they had a sort of very specific, I think, visual sensibility in place for this because it was Starfleet Academy. We’re going back to Starfleet and they wanted it to feel very warm and very inviting, to feel like a school where people wanted to go, cadets want it to be.
And so I think if you look at it from a visual standpoint, even from the cinematography who are our DPs were fantastic, but they spent a lot of time honing the lighting in a way that felt very warm and very inviting for the most part. So there’s a visual difference between that and discovery, even though they are sort of from the same time.
Ayla Ruby: So obviously the show is cadets because it’s Starfleet Academy? How does that all work? How do you …
Jason Zimmerman: I think so. Yeah. I mean, Starfleet is obviously a big part of Star Trek canon, and it’s always been something people I think have wanted to get more inside of. And so this is an opportunity to delve in and go to school with the cadets, not that it hasn’t been shown in the past, but not to maybe this level of depth. And so I think it was important to make sure that they established a look that was inviting for everybody. And then as far as the visual effects tying into that, there’s so many different … There’s obviously we have things like virtual production and the large spectacle shots and things like that, but there’s also things like the Atrium Window, for instance, which is a giant set of screens. It’s essentially a virtual production volume without the tracking, but that’s our opportunity to contribute to the visual and the feel of the campus because a big undertaking there was having the different looks of San Francisco, the different times of day, and then warp, star fields, whatever the story called for.
But in the process, we get into it early. I speak with Alex a lot and he’ll text me ideas that he has about how he wants to have things represented. And so in The Atrium, which is obviously a big part of the show, big part of the school, we got to play in the sandbox a little bit and help develop the looks of the lighting, the times of day, what the city looked like in this century and all those sorts of things. So it’s one of the many ways that we sort of contribute. This season in particular, I think we had more screens that we contributed visual effects to that were there on the day as opposed to the post process. So it was a lot more involved early on.
Ayla Ruby: That has to be very fun for the actors too instead of just standing on… you actually see the thing behind you.
Jason Zimmerman: Absolutely. I think in the past, visual effects traditionally probably would’ve been blue screen. And so you just go to them before and say, over here is going to be this thing and just imagine a creature or whatever the story would call for. But with virtual production, which we have a volume and also the screens, they now have that to play off of and to react to in real time as part of the story. And so I think it probably helps them connect a lot better to the emotions of the scene and what it sort of calls for.
Ayla Ruby: You mentioned building the Atrium, creating this. Is there anything either with the Atrium or just in general in the visual effects language of Starfleet Academy that maybe people haven’t noticed or that you want to call attention to as being really maybe an underappreciated project?
Jason Zimmerman:I think a couple things come to mind with the Atrium window. I mean, first of all, it is almost the exact same size. It’s a different shape, but it’s a very similar size to our virtual production volume. So it’s a massive, massive screen. And we used both game engine, Unreal Engine in order to realize some of the visuals there, but also traditional visual effects renders. And so when we’re doing those visual effects renders, they’re not rendered to the same size that they would be if we were delivering for the show. It’s actually much, much larger. It’s like 22K or some massive amount of resolution. So it’s a much larger undertaking when you’re seeing things on screen like the Miyazaki or anything like that. It’s a big, long render that it takes because it’s got to hold up in such a much larger delivery. The other thing I would say is we spent a lot of time on San Francisco itself, credit to Brian Tatosky, he’s another supervisor that works with me on the show, massive Star Trek fan as well.
And he actually went in and in Google Maps mapped out where everything was exactly as is. So what you’re seeing out the window is an accurate representation of what is there, at least geographically that we built on top of where the sun is, the time of day, all of that was mapped out exactly as it actually is in the real world. So we tried to stick to the reality of things as much as we could.
Ayla Ruby: That has to feel surreal. I’m going to actually jump to a couple of other things. So I’m going to jump into episode nine of Starfleet Academy because I thought that was really cool. There was the Athena rescues, the cadets in this big ship sequence and it’s just really cool. Can you talk about conceptualizing that and building that out? Because I think I read somewhere that that wasn’t originally in the scripts. Am I wrong with that or …
Jason Zimmerman: I don’t remember exactly where it made its way into the scripts, but things obviously evolve over the course of time. That one was directed by Jonathan Frakes, which is always a pleasure to work with him. He’s obviously Star Trek royalty and also very collaborative creatively, especially with visual effects. He understands what we do so well. And in that particular case, the Ukeck market was actually a virtual production asset as well.
There’s a lot of combination of VFX, virtual production, practical production, hybrid workflows and everything that are going on there. The Ukeck market asset for virtual production was actually pretty exciting because we actually built our virtual production volume is shaped like a horseshoe. And so the opening, if you can imagine the opening is where we get things like the crane in and where people walk in and out. But because the market had this sort of long walkway and everything, they actually built practically in there. So it was a 360 degree set for him to shoot for. So there’s a lot of practical hallway and sort of little pieces of the marketplace. And then they walk into the main area, which is the virtual production volume and it all sort of tied together seamlessly. Obviously that takes a lot from every department working together to make sure that things all look on the level and that.
But it was one of the first times I think we’d done a 360 degree set using the virtual production volume, which was cool because to your point, it’s so immersive for the actors. They look around, everything is exactly like it’s going to be for final. And then the Athena rescue was a really, really, really fun sequence to work on. And specifically the shot where the ship sort of comes down and shines its light on them is probably one of my favorite of the season. It’s a very big shot. There’s a lot of visual effects, assets and sort of work that go on behind the scenes. But it’s always fun when you can do those sorts of things where you tie in with production before, like when you’re actually shooting, visual effects is so often a post thing, but nowadays it’s getting to the point where we’re a lot more involved earlier on.
And so to be able to contribute to something that ends up on camera on the day and then knowing we’re going to go in and sort of do additional work, it was really, really fun and satisfying to see that come to life.
Ayla Ruby: Oh, that’s fantastic. And yeah, I think it absolutely translates into being just on the screen for watching it too. I think the whole just aesthetic of the shows, just like you feel compared to how Star Trek was when I was growing up, it’s so cool to watch.
Jason Zimmerman: It was important, especially with Ukeck. It’s supposed to be a massive space. It’s a settlement, it’s a marketplace. And so when you look down all the different corridors and everything, you’ll see tons of people back there. And those were all elements that we shot and sort of dressed in. So there’s literally hundreds of people that are realized in the virtual production volume in addition to just the scope and scale of the sort of visual effects of it all.
Ayla Ruby: Now collaboration from what you said is very important. Can you talk about working with, because for something like that, you would work with the PD, all of those folks too, right?
Jason Zimmerman: Yeah, we work with everybody. I mean, especially this show is so heavily visual effects driven, not driven, but I mean we have a big footprint on the show. And so from day one, I mean, I can remember as far back as when Alex told me that we were going to start doing this show before there were scripts, before anybody was involved and just sort of talking about ideas. And so we really do, because I have a relationship with Alex that dates back, I don’t know, 15 years at this point. We start talking about things so far in advance of actually shooting it that by the time you get there, you’ve sort of already gone through all of the different emotions associated with it. But we start at that point. So when the writer’s room is happening, we’re talking about the different ideas and how to execute them. And then as soon as producing director Olatunde Osunsanmi comes in to the producers to the writer’s room to Noga, we’re constantly talking with everybody because they’re all coming up with ideas and sometimes there’s challenges we have to overcome, how do we shoot this or what should we build and what should be virtual production? All those sorts of conversations are just happening. And especially on a first year show, those are the times you’re sort of working through all of the challenges and deciding what the sort of cadence of the show will be and how the problem solving happens and where practical ends and visual effects begin. And so it was really fun as a first year show. We had a lot of fun. I spent a lot of time up there in Toronto while we were shooting, just sort of interacting with everybody in the art department and every department, especially with something like virtual production, because it ends up on camera on the day with everybody else, we’re involved with everybody.
And so we got to make sure we show it to everybody many times, many, many meetings. Does the lighting work for the DPs? Does the placement of different things work for production and set decoration and props and everything else? So you get pulled into a very collaborative thing. We’re doing multiple meetings a week to discuss the virtual production process in addition to planning for the visual effects, which also come later. So it’s really cool to sort of be right in the middle of everything.
Ayla Ruby: Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Was there one thing that was, I guess that we haven’t talked about was the most challenging thing to overcome or most gratifying thing to pull off with Starfleet Academy?
Jason Zimmerman: I think the most challenging thing to overcome with Star Trek is always the canon of it all. It’s a massive show. We’re at year 60, you know what I mean? And so to your point, I don’t think there’s a person you’ll talk to on Earth that doesn’t have a Star Trek story growing up. I remember watching it with my parents or I saw this movie and it really, everybody has a Star Trek story at this point on earth almost. And so that’s a lot of pressure every time a new show starts, every time a new season comes out, you have to remember that. And at the same time, it can’t paralyze you. You just got to keep working through it and do your best to learn from the past and at the same time improve and put the best product you possibly can on screen.
So I think there’s always a lot of challenge to the canon of it all. As far as individual sequences, we’ve done this, I think me and my team, we’re 10 years in. I think I’ve done over 150 episodes of Star Trek at this point. So there’s nothing that’s terrifying. I mean, there’s always a moment when you read a script and you go, “Oh God, how are we going to execute this? ” But I have a great team around me. We have a great team in production up in Toronto. We have great writers. Everybody is so interested in making Trek the best that it can be. We also have a lot of shorthand because a lot of the people have been there as long as I have. And so it’s you pick up your phone and you text somebody and go, “Hey, I’m thinking about this.” And they’ve been thinking about it too. So it’s that shorthand that you build over years working on something like that really, really helps, I think, to bring things together a lot quicker than it would if you were just starting from scratch with a new group of people.
Ayla Ruby: That’s awesome. That’s phenomenal. And that also makes a lot of sense. Okay. Shifting a litle bit into Strange New Worlds, I have, I guess, questions about a couple of things from season three, but so much of season three is the Gorn and the end of season two. From a visual standpoint, how do you evoke that terror that the characters feel that just is in the story through all of the effects?
Jason Zimmerman: Sure. I mean, again, talking about canon, the Gorn is one of the most beloved characters in Star Trek lore. And so dating back to before season three when we knew they were coming, it was like, okay, we really got to get this right. And then fortunately we started with a practical build first and so credit to legacy effects and their designs and sort of getting us going with something like, because we weren’t just thinking about what the Gorns looked like at one particular point. It was seeing them young all the way into their adulthood. And so they built different practical builds of that and then we sort of got involved in how do we help? How do we augment that? How do we plus that? What are the moments that a practical build just doesn’t work? If they’re jumping off a building or falling from the ceiling, that’s probably not somebody in a costume or anything. It’s probably going to be us.
But also at the same time, I think there are moments where you get in there and the showrunners may want a little bit more scariness or something where we’ll go in and add, maybe we replace the face or do something to make them a little bit scarier, give them a little bit more emotion, add some drool and open the mouth a little bit wider, have the tongue wag a little bit. And so I think when you get in there and you see the puppet, the guy in the costume, it looks amazing. It looks fantastic. And a lot of the times that holds up as is and we don’t have to do anything. But then there’s other times where there’s action sequences, the fight with Spock, I think at the end of season two, for instance, and then going into season three, there’s that gunfight at the beginning of, or is that episode one, I think, 301.
Ayla Ruby: I can’t remember if it’s the end of two or more.
Jason Zimmerman: Yeah, it’s the escape in 301, first episode of season three, but that was a gunfight where they’re climbing on the walls and falling down from the ceiling and shooting each other. And so that was an opportunity for us to really get in there and sort of play in the sandbox. And yet at the same time ties into the practical when they’re getting in there and they’re close quarters fighting, you’ve got a real person for the actors to react against, gives them a better sense of the scariness of it all. So again, the best version of this is working with everybody and collaborating for the best product and love working with the Gorn. I couldn’t be more excited when I saw them in the script.
Ayla Ruby: Well, now outside of canon, there’s this whole new thing too in season three, right? There’s the Vezda, which is how does that work when you’re not, I guess, bound as much by canon and you have this evil of all evils and …
Jason Zimmerman: Yeah, the good thing is our showrunners and our writers always come with ideas. So we very seldom have to come up with something from scratch. And again, that’s the most fun and it’s such an honor to be able to do that when somebody comes and says, “Hey, we’re thinking this, what do you guys think or what can we do? ” And so they come with the ideas, we read the script and we see that. And then as it starts to come to life, of course the director comes in, they’ve got their version of it that really is the one that takes us to get the episode done. And then when you get into post, you get to play with things. And we have a design of the creature before we start shooting because that way, at least you can show the director and the actors, this is what it’s going to look like.
It may not be that … Because if we don’t need it on the day of shooting, we don’t need to design it for that. But they do need to know what it looks like. We do need to know the reason, the story behind the character because that matters in our world as well. How does it move? So we’re doing motion tests, we’re doing size tests, we’re experimenting with different textures and all that stuff to see what makes this character tick and works the most for the writers and the showrunners and producers and everything. And then once you’ve shot it and you get into post, you put it in a shot and you go, “Well, that doesn’t really look right, does it? ” And so then you kind of go back and you make some adjustments. It may be texture adjustments. It may be that it needs to move a different way or whatever, but you sort of adjust it based on what was actually shot production wise so that you can get the best version of the episode.
So there’s a lot of experimentation that goes on. In some ways it’s easier because you’re not beholden to the last 60 years of canon necessarily as much. On the other hand, that can be hard too because then you’re like, we have to define a whole new character. And it’s scary because now you’re inserting that into canon that has this massive, massive following and has all these different stories. And so you got to make sure you get it right because you don’t want everybody to get to that character and go like, “Eh.” So you got to look at everything that was going to go like, “This hs got to be a certain quality. It’s got to have certain performance and all that stuff.” And it’s also, by the way, it’s really fun when you talking back about the Gorn, but also the Vezda, it’s fun and visual effects when you get to actually help performance story and motion and actually contribute to those things.
And so anytime we get to do any creature work or anything, it’s always such a fun time because we get to sit there and look at the edit and work with the showrunners and Henry and Akiva and talk about how are we going to do this? And does this work? Is this scary enough, not scary enough? And you talk a lot less in technical terms when you’re talking about that stuff. It’s a lot more story driven and we’re just supposed to go away and worry about the technical of it all later and we do that. But yeah, I mean, it’s a blast. And the Vesda was certainly fun to be able to establish the behavior and the look and the performance a litle bit more.
Ayla Ruby: And I know we’re pretty close on time, but is there anything else you want people to know or is there anything that you want people to know about your work or the team’s work?
Jason Zimmerman: I would draw attention to the team and not just Starfleet, but 10 years of visual effects on Star Trek as a team, being able to do that with these guys and also to be able to do some great stuff for a franchise that’s so important to people has been such a blast for us. And to be able each season, each show is a different challenge, different stories, different look. So to be able to do that and have that many episodes, like I said, it’s 150 something.
Ayla Ruby: I didn’t realize that even, I guess I should have with Discovery, but that’s a massive amount.
Jason Zimmerman: I think it’s like 17 seasons or something like that. So it’s been a massive accomplishment for us as a team. And I think my favorite part of doing this has been developing that rapport and that sort of shorthand with the team and being able to get up every morning and play with spaceships. I mean, what better job is there than that? So we’ve had a blast. We’re still enjoying it. Can’t wait to finish off Star Fleet Season 2 and Strange New Worlds and send them out the right way.
Ayla Ruby: That’s exciting and I can’t wait to see what you have in store. So thank you very much.
Jason Zimmerman: Thank you so much. It was great to meet you.
Ayla Ruby: Good to meet you too. Take care. Thank you.
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