Interview: Jessica Lee Gagné on ‘Severance’ and Chikhai Bardo

Jessica Lee Gagné has had a fascinating career, from her work on the miniseries Escape at Dannemora (with Ben Stiller) to Mrs. America and most recently Apple TV+’s hit show, Severance. She been a nominee for a number of prestigious awards for her cinematography and with this season of Severance, steppped into the world of directing. Chikhai Bardo, the seventh episode of season two, is a masterfully made episode on all fronts, and it was also Gagné’s directorial debut. It’s a remarkable dive into Dichen Lachman‘s Gemma and the world of Lumon too, so when we had the change to sit down with Gagné to go behind the camera, we were excited.

Over Zoom, we spoke with Gagné, and she shared how a Swedish office art book helped her overcome her initial hesitation in hopping onto the series, allowing her to embrace and redefine the office aesthetic. Episode seven of season two was her directorial debut, and she shared what drew her to it and why it was the perfect episode to unravel Gemma’s story. Gagné zeroed in on transitions and discussed how the ones from this episode served as a means of traveling through space and time for the characters. Directing the episode left a deep emotional mark on her, and she discussed that, along with some hints about her next big project, her first feature film.

Ayla Ruby: I’d love to talk to you about your journey to Severance.You’ve really made a mark on it, but I always like to find out what appealed to people about the show before they even popped onto it. What was it that appealed to you?

Jessica Lee Gagné: Well, I have the opposite story of everyone with this one. And I mean, I’ve said this before, but I didn’t want to do Severance originally.

Ayla Ruby: Really?

Jessica Lee Gagné: Yeah. I knew I wanted to work with Ben [Stiller] because we had this really great collaboration on Escape. I know we both found a style that we really liked, and we got to explore visual language in a really fun way on that show. And it was just this natural progression of getting to work together again. And there’s always that moment where people are trying to figure out what project they’re doing next, and they have multiple things moving. And for me, Severance was one that I was struggling to see in my mind. I think compare it to most office shows. As a cinematographer, I wasn’t gravitating towards that language. It didn’t really speak to me. And then I was kind of just trying to do visual research on different projects and trying to find images that would spark something for me personally. And I went to this art book fair in New York on the piers, and I found this book called Office by Lars Tunbjörk photographer.

And this book had the weirdest, and I find such a beautiful way of photographing office language and weird office kind of quirk mise-en-scène. It was just like people cut off in weird situations with dividers. And I was like, oh, wow, this is amazing. And I texted Ben, I’m like, okay, I get it now. I get what Severance can be. In my mind, I was able to see how I could kind of put my stamp on it as a cinematographer. And that opened the door to me finding a lot of other visual references. And I leaned into that and kind of embraced the office aesthetic and also just challenged myself to kind of restructure what, as a cinematographer, what is beauty within the image? It doesn’t need to be a sunset, that kind of clean aesthetic, minimalist aesthetic. And basically, just having the essential things in the frame speak. So, for me, that was liberating. In a weird way. I feel like it’s something I had been avoided, not interested or not intrigued by. But then when you go in those places where you’re a little more afraid to go, you could discover new things.

Ayla Ruby: I think that’s so interesting that you say that too, because across all your body of work with Severance, but especially with 2 0 7, the one you directed, obviously there’s just so much, I don’t even know how to describe it. It’s just a really interesting visual episode. Feels experimental in a lot of ways with some of the things happening. It was brilliant. So, kudos to you for doing that.

Jessica Lee Gagné: I think it is experimental in a way, and once it was done, I feel like we realized how experimental it was once it was edited, and then there was the moment of, wait a second, is this too much? Where are we going here? But I think Ben trusted the vision and he kind of the overarching eyes of this project, and he seemed to be okay with it, but there was a little bit of a fear of like, oh, is this too far away from the tone of the film? I mean, of the show.

Ayla Ruby: Yeah, I know what you mean.

Jessica Lee Gagné: But honestly, there was never going to be another moment to do that. We’re talking about the past. And the challenge with seven where the amount of things that needed to move through that episode, and they kind of needed their own episode because you needed the viewer to be focused enough on this specific thing. If we would’ve thrown little things here and there, I don’t think it wouldn’t have worked. Well, who knows? Maybe there was another way of doing it, but it deserved its own moment. And the character of Gemma deserved her own episode as well, because basically what happened to her is what created this life for Mark or where he is now. But yeah, it was tricky. I worked with a writer, Mark Friedman to try and help him figure out how to piece it all together, and he had these storylines and things that he knew he wanted to move through, and he wanted it to feel like a whirlwind. So he came to me for help with the transitions and to how to piece it together. And we kind of just went off intuition and just ideas that would come up, and it found its own self in the end.

But yeah, I think being open to that process. Also, one thing that’s amazing of working on a show like Severance is you’re kind of protected by Apple in a way. I think they really believe in this show. So they were giving us a lot of space, and I think that that led us to going where we did because it wasn’t out of you need to fit in a box. It was more just, and the trust between Ben and I think was really helpful. He really trusted me. Yeah, I kind of forgot that it was for an audience sometimes.

Ayla Ruby: This particular episode, did you always know that you wanted to tackle her, not to say her origin story, but that backstory to her?

Jessica Lee Gagné: You mean if I knew when in the sense of in season one or because in season one I had no idea I would ever direct.

Ayla Ruby: I mean, just So maybe this is better, even walking back. So this is your first time directing, and it’s your first time directing for the show. And just in general, how did that come about and why this particular episode?

Jessica Lee Gagné: I think that episode is what made me realize I needed to direct when I read the synopsis of it is when I connected with it and I was like, well, first of all, I don’t really want anyone else doing this as a woman. I want to direct it. I’ve never felt that way as a cinematographer of feeling like I needed to do the female project, but you know what? The more I age and grow, I don’t know, the more I realize that it’s actually important. So I felt like I wanted to defend this episode. I wanted to make it special, but the directing thing was offered at first, and I didn’t really even get the chance to turn it down. I just was kind of like, that’s not what I’m interested in. But then when I read the synopsis, I was like, oh yeah, okay, there’s never going to be a better place. Or else I would’ve had to open up my mind to directing. I would be like, okay, well, am I going to be on another show where there’s going to be another season two and then I’m going to, because it was such a fear, such a fear to go there.

Ayla Ruby: Do you feel like, okay, so I want to walk through the episode a little bit because I think there’s, and I know we’re getting close on time, but there’s so much about the episode itself that I want to talk about. So there’s this big, and I’m going to use horrible terms to describe it. I don’t know the technical terms. There’s like in the macro data room, there’s this spinning, right? And there’s this uneasiness. Do you know what scene I’m talking about? It’s almost one shot. Jessica Lee Gagné:You mean the viewing room?

Ayla Ruby: Yes.

Jessica Lee Gagné: Below the macro…

Ayla Ruby: Yes, yes, yes. That’s it.

Jessica Lee Gagné: Okay. It’s okay. Below MDR, technically,

Ayla Ruby:Yes. And there’s this spinning, and it’s just like, that’s incredible.

Jessica Lee Gagné: That’s spinning. Well, I, there’s the whole move, which is, if I have to backtrack this with you to get explaining the transitions,

Ayla Ruby: Please, I would love that.

Jessica Lee Gagné: I think for me, the transitions were, and they were purely intuitive, the ideas, it was just like what came to my mind in terms of how to connect scenes together. And that’s where I got to really work with the writer to kind of go there.

Ayla Ruby: The transitions…

Jessica Lee Gagné:Yeah, I don’t have a visual. It’s funny because when I read stuff, transitions weren’t written. That was what I did with the writer, but I don’t know why, but my mind works like this. When I read something, I know even if it reads not in a traditional script way, which is, you can read, you can tell sometimes with writers how they want you to shoot something, but there are things on Severance that they’re written in a specific way. And I think Dan is very linked to his own intuition, and I can read it and know what it’s going to look like within the frame, and I know how to deliver it without, I don’t have a block about the physical limitations in the world of how to shoot things. I just think that comes from my background as a cinematographer, the understanding of how to move a camera

And what the possibilities are and how to ground it. And these transitions would come to my mind at the same time as visually I’m seeing them, I know how to make them, that one transition that we’re talking about right now, which is this thing that goes into the cables and it spins out into the room, the cables forever to figure out that I didn’t know how to do it, but I knew I wanted to try and do it. And Ben was like, well, if you shoot it practically, you can do it. So we ended up shooting all the elements practically, there is stitching and some cleanup work in it, but we found a way to make it real. And all of these transitions, they kind of are a way of traveling through time in a way. How do you move through time and space? That’s something I love to explore in my own life, of just going in different states and doing somatic therapy and things like that and dropping into my subconscious. So when we drop into the couch, I wanted it to feel like when you go into these deeper subconscious states, you sometimes physically feel like you’re falling backwards.

So it was just evoking either going into another space or moving through time. And the idea of spirals for me really connects with time. I have this feeling, I don’t really know if this is true or not, but that time is kind of stored in a spiral. So there’s a lot of spiral patterns that you can find in a lot of rotation in the episode where we’re moving around things. And that’s basically changing the perspective. And in that spinning shot, if you’re talking about, we’re going around that room and we’re also traveling through time. So we use the technique of just time lapse. So basically you’re seeing is just time moving, but in a sporadic way. But the whole episode is exploring time in many ways. Many different cinematic techniques are used and just moving in a way that’s outside of what we experience with our senses, our regular senses.

Ayla Ruby: Well, now that I kind of think about your focus on transitions with this too, there are a lot of closeups, I feel like on the face and on the eyes that kind of journey into the past for her. And it sounds like that was, I mean, obviously all of it’s intentional, but that was very an intentional technique.

Jessica Lee Gagné: Most of the transitions were 100% planned. There are a couple that we ended up just for the, once you edit, you always are moving things around, and the tone sometimes needs adjusting or something. The reveal and the writing plays out differently on screen. So you’re trying to reveal things differently. And one thing that was kind of tricky for us to work with editorially was the reveal of the testing floor, not giving it all away in one shot, and then also letting people know that Mark was okay and in revealing what was going on with Devon and Asal and all of that. So that made us shift from the original structure of the script. And by doing that, some of the transitions were shifted as well. And then there was, so we lost some of them. There were some that were originally shot that are not in the edit,

Ayla Ruby: Okay.

Jessica Lee Gagné: There’s one transition on her eyes, which wasn’t planned like this. Once she gets the IVF needle mark, I dunno what the word would be, I want to say, hits her with the needle, Mark pokes her with the needle, and then she blinks and she’s back into the little doctor part of her suite where Mauer is examining her. So that blink of an eye wasn’t planned, that just kind of happened to nicely move together. But those are, to me, obvious symbols, ways of communicating to people that she’s in her head. Because for her, there’s different moments. There’s moments where she’s waking up from a sleep state. There’s moments where she’s just thinking, and you kind of want to connect her because it influences her state of mind.

Jessica Lee Gagné: But in one challenge in this episode was justifying her state of mind in the suite room. When I say her suite, I’m talking about where she’s staying in that little, in that green car…

Ayla Ruby: Like her individual, not house, but that little..

Jessica Lee Gagné: Suite.

Ayla Ruby: Before she goes into the torture chambers?

Jessica Lee Gagné: Yes, exactly. Her suite where she’s given all these toys and things that she can do anyways. No. So in that place, you kind of have to understand why this woman, why is she even still alive? Why is she even holding on to anything? And I think we find her in this episode in a state of hope. She’s kind of has this weird feeling. Has she just been dreaming about Mark? Is she connecting here? She’s connecting him. Why is he in her mind right now? And what’s funny is that it’s not funny. What’s interesting is that Mark is reintegrating,

So you can kind of make that connection that they’re meeting in this liminal space that exists in the subconscious where we can connect with other people. Where are the boundaries of us is not there anymore. I feel that’s my interpretation of it. I mean, I think everyone has different interpretations of it, but that is what’s triggering her to get to the point of hitting this guy. First of all, everything that’s happening in that Christmas room is pretty traumatizing as well. And she has a ring and all of that, but it’s the thing that’s going to push her back to trying in this desperate act of leaving.

Ayla Ruby: Well, there’s that line that I think the doctor says, her husband’s remarried all this stuff, and she’s like, I don’t believe you. And I feel like that’s the moment that she still has hope that you were just kind of referenced. And then the violence.

Jessica Lee Gagné: So that’s the moment where she kind of breaks a little bit before that there, there’s this big wide shot of them, and they’re at each side of this room, and they’re very distant to me when he’s entering this room and she’s going off to her side and he’s going to her side. They’re in a play constantly, and that’s how I see that shot. But they’re constantly acting in their reality. So there’s this interesting thing where she kind of breaks just in that moment and then goes ahead and tries to knock the guy out. But it’s all charged. And that came through a lot of conversations between Mark and I and then working that out with Dichen and with Robbie, who plays Dr. Mauer. We all kind of came together to that because it was hard to justify her having any willpower, any kind of, why is she even getting out of bed?

Ayla Ruby: Then there’s that right after that, there’s this, and it’s also very visually interesting. She’s kind of running down this hallway after she’s gotten off the elevator and there’s Milchick that kind of stops her. But there’s this play with perspective there that was cool that I wish would love if you could talk about…

Jessica Lee Gagné: What do you mean by play with perspective?

Ayla Ruby: So it’s like she starts off really big and the elevator is kind, or not the elevator. The hallway is kind of closing in on her, if that makes sense. And then she goes to the doorway and Milchick’s right there.

Jessica Lee Gagné: I mean, that’s an interesting view on it. I never digested it that way.

Ayla Ruby: I’d love to hear your perspective on it.

Jessica Lee Gagné: Something’s just happened. I think that the hallways in general, we always try to make them feel there’s this weird, claustrophobic kind.

Ayla Ruby: That’s a great way of describing it.

Jessica Lee Gagné: When that hallway specifically, you can’t see the walls, but it’s like darkness closing in a weird way. The thing I was just focusing on in that scene was when he opens the door, that’s the moment our heart breaks because as an audience, we don’t know. He’s going to just, there’s a weird moment of, oh,

Ayla Ruby: She’s going to be free.

Jessica Lee Gagné: Is she going to be free? But the saddest thing is that she was never going to be free. When she comes back down in the elevator and she breaks down, she’s just like, she knows again. She’s probably done this before.

Ayla Ruby: Was there anything that you’re really proud of or that was really unexpectedly challenging with this episode that we haven’t talked about?

Jessica Lee Gagné: I think I’m just proud of it in general because I did not believe in myself at all. And then to see it come together and when we did the mix, I don’t know why I’m getting emotional, but I cried because when you do a mix on a project, the color grade’s not done, but I know what the color grade’s going to be. I know that part of it, but the mix is this. You hear all the sounds and the music and everything really comes together and it moves through your body in such a beautiful way. And to be able to see that I was able to make something that was professional as a director really moved me. So I’m just proud that I did it, that I pushed myself to go out, to be out to work outside of my comfort zone. And I think the other thing I’m really proud of is, and I don’t know, I don’t know that this resonates for everyone, but I feel like there are women who’ve watched it and feel that it’s a woman who directed it, and for some reason I’m very proud of that.

Ayla Ruby: It would be a totally different perspective otherwise I think, or just way into it.

Jessica Lee Gagné: Yeah, I think you really needed to be a woman that did it. And I never was that person before who’s like, it needs to be a woman. But now I’m just like, oh man. Yeah, it’s important. We really don’t have that many female voices as directors, especially big shows like this more now, which is amazing. But still, we have some ways to go.

Ayla Ruby: I’m very much a fan of promoting all of that, so I love that. And congratulations again. This is, I think, genuinely one of my favorite episodes of TV just this season. And I mean, not just of Severance, just anything I’ve watched this season, so congratulations.

Jessica Lee Gagné: I’m glad you liked it.

Ayla Ruby: Is there anything else you want people to know or what are you working on next if you can share it?

Jessica Lee Gagné: I’m working on my first feature. I can’t say much about it, but it’s also a very female story about womanhood and beauty and desires and all of the, in your shadow self, all the things that we repress. And yeah, I don’t know. I guess I don’t know. I don’t know what else to do. That’s

Ayla Ruby: Totally fine. Thank you. This has been lovely.