benjaminwiebe
The Anarchists is the latest HBO docu-series that has aired over the past 6 weeks, documenting the anarchist community that grew in Acapulco, Mexico since 2016. Directed by Todd Schramke, the series interviews the various people who are apart of this community, the tensions within, and the fallout of a murder inspired by spite. Awards Radar had the opportunity to speak with Todd Schramke on the production of the series, the obstacles that were there for such a tense project, and what this project means to him. Read the transcribed interview (edited for legibility) below.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
How are you doing today, Todd?
Todd Schramke
All right. How are you doing?
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
Oh, not too bad. The irony is not lost on me that I, someone who’s only been doing interviews for a year, am interviewing someone who’s been interviewing many people for the last six years.
Todd Schramke
Yeah, I mean, I still feel like I am figuring out how to do it every time. Every interview is different, and each has its own challenges.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
So, the first thing I want to ask is what brought you into filmmaking?
Todd Schramke
Oh, yeah. No one’s actually asked me that question. Yeah. I think I started doing it when I was a child, and funny enough, the first moment that I thought about was shooting videos of my family because I had camcorders as a kid. But the concept of actually intentionally making and editing a video came when I watched an episode of The Simpsons, believe it or not there. And Lisa Simpson was making a dating video in this for Ned Flanders. Her and Homer were like trying to find him a new girlfriend. And Lisa was editing a video and I was maybe 10 or 11 years old and thought, like, a kid can do this. Editing a video is maybe like a thing that could happen. And I started figuring out how to do it. And from there, it was just one thing after another, and it got more and more complicated over the years, and I fell in love with it. I fell in love with storytelling, and I started studying filmmaking more properly, in my teenage years. And yeah, just kept doing it until now. Um, yeah, having directed an HBO series, it was a long, long journey. And there were many, many steps along the way in between there. Well, that was how it all started.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
Now, we’re going to talk about a lot of those steps. In the Docu-series, you mentioned that you kind of discovered Anarchopulco through YouTube. And through finding out about Jeff through the internet, if I remember correctly. What brought you to searching for these ideas on YouTube? And how has your ideology shifted over time through this process?
Todd Schramke
Yeah, my ideology was intentionally left a bit ambiguous in this series. There’s a whole backstory behind my own experience with the anarchist movement. You know, going back five or six years prior to me actually going down to Acapulco. Jeff was the person who founded Anarcapolco. He’s kind of an interesting character in that he’s a strange subversion of a community leader and that he is extremely, extremely reluctant and hands off and doesn’t want anything really to do with the community. He’s incredibly introverted and deals with a lot of social anxiety. So it was actually not Jeff, even though I knew who he was; it was someone who I met about six years prior to even going down to Acapulco. One of the subjects in the show I had met, while I was exploring anarchism in my late teens and early 20s. I had kept in touch with him on Facebook very loosely, because he was someone who was following cryptocurrency and that was an emerging story at the time. And he had been repeatedly posting about traveling down to Mexico and Acapulco and promoting this conference and trying to get other people to come down and maybe even stay as he did and set up residency there in Acapulco. So it was more so his documentary that he self produced that we touched on in episode one that really drew me in and it didn’t have much to do with Berwick, or even anarchism, because I had heard that story many times over. It was this idea that there were people who were coming together and trying to live this out and you know, make this a real world thing and take this out of the internet forum arguments and the Facebook arguments and really make this a real life experiment.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
Yeah, for sure. And building on that a little bit more than, at what point did you really start doing the interviews and finding you had something that could be made into a show? I presume that like the first few times, you’re down there, you kind of started scouting things out. But like, when did it turn into a big production? Or a bigger?
Todd Schramke
Yeah, there, it was a continuous process of just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. The very first trip that I went on in 2016, I had a totally open mind, it was mostly just to go down and interact with the community and see if there was a story to tell. And I shot the first set of interviews back then and walked away, you know, thinking maybe there was a short film or something I could, you know, self produced and put out there on my own. But I didn’t even quite feel like I had that. And it was the following year in 2017, where there were two major things that happen. One was the explosion in the price of Bitcoin, which had made a lot of these people who I just met, really wealthy, or at least perceived to be really wealthy. And alongside that, two of our main subjects, John and Lillie had announced that they were forking the conference in the community. And that, you know, indicated, okay, well, we have conflict, conflict means drama, drama means we have a story to tell. So I thought, at that point, this could be an interesting, quirky sort of character exploration of these, you know, French people who were trying to do something different. And that was when I around the time to that I met my wife, Kim in Thailand, who has become just a completely essential part of this project. And she started going down with me and the conference in 2018, was just a massive, massive spectacle. That just gave us so much rich footage and allowed us to get to know the community much more deeply. And yeah, from there, it was just a matter of like, okay, well, where are we going to get funding, and it was still totally self produced and self funded at the time. And, yeah, we did some crowdfunding. And, you know, we’re pitching this as a feature that we were going to put out on our own. And then a year later was when the murder happened. And that was the most emotionally complicated part of our lives. It was tough, because on one hand, we saw a very, very tragic, violent death of someone that we were getting to know very well. But it also opened up a lot of new avenues for storytelling, not only with the new public interest in this story, but also the access the deeper access it gave us to the subjects and their backstories. And that was when we started to realize, oh, this could be a docu-series, and that there was going to be enough interest to take this to larger partners. And that’s what first brought us to Blumhouse and then ultimately to HBO, who all, you know, helped us turn this into the amazing epic story that it became.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
So speaking of the conflict, the murder and a lot of the infighting, I get the feeling you guys, were middlemen in this community to an extent, as you are going to talk to Lily and John and Jeff and the Freemans. What was that like?
Todd Schramke
I mean, that’s one of the most fundamental challenges of telling a story like this is, how do you get close to people close enough for them to open up and tell their stories, but stay removed and detached enough that you are still objective and creating some true sense of what’s going on? So I could have never done it without my wife, Kim, who is one of the most empathetic and patient and curious people I’ve ever met in my life and her ability to just maintain these relationships. And you know, there’s so many conversations that go on off camera and behind the scenes, both while we’re in Acapulco, and when you’re away and back home in the States. So yeah, it was an ongoing challenge and struggle to maintain neutrality. And even as the show is coming out, we still have several other subjects reaching out and venting to us and then talking to us about their, you know, old feelings and the drama that went down. But yeah, you’re absolutely right. That was a key part of this process.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
You mentioned moving back and forth between Acapulco and the United States. How long were you guys down there? Was it just for the interviews and the conferences, or was it for months at a time?
Todd Schramke
It varied quite a bit. Like I said, we were totally self funded from the beginning. And in the process of founding our own production company, Bird Murmur in 2019, which was not entirely dedicated to this show, it was our main project, but we are also producing commercials and branded content. So we were back in the States living our normal civilian lives, while also tracking a lot of the drama that was going on. So from the beginning, my first trip was only a week long, and then they progressively got longer and longer. As we went, and in 2018, we were down there for a couple weeks. And then after the murder happened, we were down there for over a month. And, you know, we had limitations with our budget. It would have been better if we, from the beginning could have been more embedded in the community. But we had to work with what we had at the time, and the limitations of both our budgets and our own personal life. So it was an ongoing struggle. But on top of that, to a lot of the drama that was unfolding…
I’ll backtrack a little bit. I was very resistant at first to be a character in the documentary, to break the fourth wall and address the audience. I was hesitant to shoot the role of director sitting at his computer looking really intense, watching what’s going on on the screen. But really, that in reality, that was a lot of what this process was, it was just following what was going on via social media and Facebook and the different platforms and steam it, which is another one that we introduced in episode two. So even though we were only present there in Acapulco for a few weeks, or a month or so at a time, we were totally immersed in the community through the rest of the year when we weren’t there. And then ultimately through this, you know, the past year, once we had funding in partnership with Blumhouse, and HBO, we were down there quite a bit. And there were, you know, months of travel involved, and a lot of coordinating to get our final master interviews, which were necessary to tie all of it together in the end.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
Of course, you’ve mentioned like traveling and stuff. And I’m curious how the pandemic impacted this. This is a multi year long project that I presume had some production difficulty during the 2020 pandemic.
Todd Schramke
Yeah, I mean, when we were in the deepest part of the lockdowns, it also coincided with a period of inactivity within the community. So while we are at our heaviest restrictions, there wasn’t really much travel involved. We know the story kind of leaves off in 2020, at the beginning of 2020, as the pandemic is just about to emerge, save for maybe one or two events that occurred after that. So yeah, for the most part, it wasn’t much of an issue. And then for the final stages of production, it was definitely a lot of logistical juggling that all productions are doing right now, and especially telling a story of anarchists who are very opposed to government regulations, it created a bunch of challenges. But you know, we had a lot of creative and intelligent people we were working with on our team that helped us navigate the same problems that all productions are dealing with right now. And it helped us that it was a documentary, which gives us a bit more freedom to be agile and scaled down when we needed to. And a big part of it as well wasn’t, you know, the final stages of coverage. I’m a cinematographer and my wife Kim as a professional production sound mixer. So the fact that the two of us are a completely self sufficient two person documentary crew, was a big advantage for the few story points that we had to cover during the the pandemic. So yeah, it was, it was complicated, but we made it work.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
Of course, you after production, we’ve had a fair amount of time then for postproduction and editing and stuff for how you’ve actually told the story. Juxtaposition is occasionally used to create some dramatic irony that I found to be interesting. How much did you get to shape these events in the editing process, and what were you trying to do with those ideas? Did you want to make it evocative?
Todd Schramke
I mean, with the broad range of it’s a very, very vast story. It’s a big story. And we had a lot of tools that we were working with. Basically, anything you can imagine a documentary, my use to tell a story, animation, archival materials, if there’s a ton of archival materials, Vera Tae interviews, on the fly interviews, it was very, from a technical perspective, challenging to put it all together. But at the core, my training is in journalism, that was my education. So I very much approach my documentary filmmaking with that same mentality, which is really old school reporting and trying to remain objective and removed. So there was never really much discussion of like, Oh, we’re going to, you know, make this seem ironic or funny, it really is just, you know, us trying to report on the events as they were happening and report on the, the characters and tell their genuine perspectives. And for the most part, they all feel very satisfied with the job that we did. And they felt like it was very truthful, and we took the time to understand where they were coming from. So everything that’s in there, just kind of emerged organically and naturally, there was no real objective to portray everyone in a certain light.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
I find it very impressive that you’re able to stay very objective in a narrated documentary, when most typical documentaries in this style have a biased narrator comment on these events. You introduce the setting and events that occur, and let the audience come to their own conclusion on the events.
Todd Schramke
Yeah, it was. I was not totally certain that I would do narration from the very beginning. It’s something I’ve done on some of my earlier projects when I was younger, but eventually felt like we needed to have some sort of tour guides to help in the same way, we were mediating the, the, between the subjects, it needed another voice to mediate between them and the audience. But I approached it from a very, very minimalist perspective and tried to only step in when it was totally necessary and avoid sharing my own opinions and let the subject speak for themselves.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
Well, now we’re gonna get to an opinionated question, what does this project mean to you?
Todd Schramke
I’m still trying to figure out exactly what this project means to me at this point. But it I mean, it’s been my life for so many years, and I’m dealing with both me and my wife, I have a bit of a, like empty nester sort of feeling right now where our child is now out there in the world to fend for itself. And you we have to figure out now what we’re going to do, do post anarchist life, but from a, you know, more thematic perspective. Really, the message that not just I took out of this, but it really seemed like a lot of the subjects we were following, through all of these events took out of it as well, is just the importance of embracing ambiguity in the world. And, you know, not being closed off to ideologies, but questioning them and questioning our own beliefs and realizing that not everything exists in an extreme and, you know, we can learn from extreme ideas, but we don’t have to live them out in an absolute sense. So that, to me, was one of the most powerful messages and also just no matter what, and it doesn’t just apply to anarchism, it could be any ideology. We all need to, you know, be able to think for ourselves and not entrust a blanket belief system to solve all of society’s problems. And really, it all starts with looking both inward and dealing with our own demons and also looking toward our families and personal relationships and local communities to help each other and build and Ultimately, if we’re ever going to have this utopian anarchist society where, you know, violence and force aren’t needed, it’s only going to come if we’re all providing for and taking care of each other in a voluntary way, and it’s something I think we can achieve. But we have a lot to learn about ourselves before we can ever get there.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
For sure.
What did you guys do down there when not interviewing and shooting footage? Did you guys just have days where you talked with them and hung out with them? What was that Like?
Todd Schramke
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s pretty common for filmmakers in our position, you kind of have to find this balance between the personal connection and the relationships you build. And also, as I mentioned, you know, the balance that’s needed and remaining objective. But yeah, it’s just a part of the process is, you know, the conversations you’re having with people off camera, both in person and remotely, and planning for your trips and shooting. That’s really where the understanding of what’s going on is formed, is just researching and studying what’s going on in the background to prepare for the times that you’re actually shooting. So it involves lots of ongoing conversations and just listening and, you know, remaining curious and open to hearing the opinions and experiences of the subjects. So it’s, yeah, it there’s no, one way to do it. It’s like a complicated process that’s ongoing. And it’s not just this year, we’ve been in touch. It’s like this morning that we’ve been in touch with him still. Especially because an episode just came out last night. So yeah, it’s a tricky process. But it’s also really fun and can be enlightening and informative, from a personal perspective as well. And yeah, ultimately, to their, you know, these people are all really nice there. I think part of the appeal to this is that it’s such a diverse group of people from different backgrounds, and a lot of them have stories that people can relate to. And, you know, they kind of subvert what a lot of people would have thought is an anarchist. Prior to seeing the show, so yeah, that it’s been fun overall, getting to know these people.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
I think we have time for one more question. That’s where do you want to go from here? Like you guys mentioned, you, you and your wife are now empty nesters, your kids out in the world. So kind of what’s next? Is there an anarchist season to around the corner in the next 10 years?
Todd Schramke
You know, there has been a lot of talk about that the story is still unfolding for some of the subjects. So and it is interesting how their lives are changing now that they are subjects of an HBO Docu series, but also Yeah, I’m at my core, not trying to just be the anarchist guy. I’m a filmmaker who’s always looking for the next cool story. And yeah, and on top of that, too. My wife and I, our first bonding experience was not over filmmaking. It was over music. So we’re excited after a really long year of doing pre production, production and post production all in one crazy whirlwind, to have some time to work on music. So yeah, if you pay attention, my wife has a couple songs in the show had better credits and over the end credits of episodes four and six. So we’ll have those coming out soon as digital release. And we’re going to be doing some more music. And yeah, I’m also moving on to new projects. We have some new things in development. So on the film, and so yeah, definitely please all of us and watch out.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
Of course. I guess my last question because I have a little bit more time. What music did you guys bond over? If you’re willing to You know, share, like how you and your wife met and a little bit of that. I feel like that’s just kind of one of those fun things I like knowing.
Todd Schramke
Yeah, I mean, it’s, I guess we bonded mostly over our music that we very quickly started working on together. We, it was very serendipitous, actually, we were living in the Bay Area. And we were sharing this same practice space, like there were three bands that were working and rehearsing out of the same practice space. But there were other people that were handling the rent, and we had never even met each other and didn’t even know each other’s respective bands. And we just happen to meet each other a year after we have left that space. After moving each other’s amps around and probably complaining about each other’s gear and messes. We have an image on a on a dating app and didn’t realize until after by chance that we had been occupying the same space. And it was just a very, very quick, quick connection. And we just fell madly in love. And we were both kind of starting up new musical endeavors. So we just, you know we’re a perfect fit. And yeah, I don’t even know how to describe the music we’ve done together. It’s kind of indie folk pop rock. But yeah, you can check it out. It’s under my wife’s last name, which is Kylland, it’s all out there on Spotify. We’ve got an EP and yeah, these new tracks coming out very soon within the next month.
(Awards Radar) Benjamin Wiebe
Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time today. This has been a pleasure and a blast to talk with you about The Anarchists and your own journey through it and just that end of things and so yeah, thank you so much.
Todd Schramke
Thank you so much to and yeah, these are great questions. It was a pleasure talking to you.
The Anarchists is available to stream on HBO MAX.
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